High Comp 120cc Build

Everything to do with the 425, 472, and 500 inch Cadillac engines.

Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:34 pm

So the machine shop still has the heads. I told them to shave 30 thou off so they are waiting on a new bit to come in. They have the intake also for alignment issues. Though I did contact jnswup about a custom intake..

So I was gonna take apart the lifters when, after removing the c-clips, I noticed that the pieces that holds the link bar onto the lifter is in the way of removing the internals of the lifter. Soooo...can I remove the link bar swivel from the lifter? Or how does it come apart? Also, when trying to put it back together, I can't push the pushrod down far enough to seat the c-clip...??

I clearanced the rocker stands and threw them in the dishwasher, ready to go. I'll have pictures soon.

Next up is a new HEI distributor. I have a Summit CDI ignition box(MSD motherboard inside BTW) and need something that'll work well with it.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:57 am

Any clue on how to take a part the lifter with the link bar mount in the way of everything coming out?
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby The Mad Cadder » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:33 am

It is possible they are permanently attached. .some roller lifters
are made that way.. what brand are they ?? Contact mts or
the manufacturer. .
Btw
it no doubt wouldn't compress easily due to the oil it still has in it ..
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:38 am

Yea, after failing to take them apart, I tried putting them back together and it's impossible to push it down enough to put the clip back on.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby The Mad Cadder » Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:34 am

samIam wrote:Yea, after failing to take them apart, I tried putting them back together and it's impossible to push it down enough to put the clip back on.

try to drain the oil from the lifter body.. as I recall hyd lifters also have a check ball in them but I don't see how it could get in the way

Try leaving it apart and letting it sit upside down for a while
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby dave brode » Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:00 am

Carb cleaner or the like will help. It removes the oil, and lets the air escape the lifter body which will let the piston go into the body.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:49 pm

I took the clip out and you can move the internals about a quarter inch up and down. I let it sit at a downward angle over night but no oil came out. When I pushed the internals up and down, oil squirted out of the feed hole until it was empty. But I still can't push it down, no springiness at all, doesnt move at all. Makes me think something is funny inside.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby Nick Campagna » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:36 am

Can you put it in a chamber and draw a vacuum on it ?
Is the defect in what I see, or in what I'm seeing with? Menomonee Falls, Wi.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:34 am

Draw vacuum from the oil feed? I can certainly try with the vacuum kit I have
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:15 pm

Just got off the phone with the manufacturer, non-serviceable and he thinks I've messed something up when trying to service them since it won't go down anymore to install the clip. Especially since I think I got all the oil out.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby Nick Campagna » Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:03 am

Take it apart again, clean with brake cleaner, and only assemble the plunger and body. That will eliminate any chance something is hanging up.
Is the defect in what I see, or in what I'm seeing with? Menomonee Falls, Wi.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:14 am

So I got everything back from the machine shop. Originally the springs measured 180lb at 1.77. Now the springs measure 177lb at 1.77. The 35 thou shave of the heads brought the CCs down from 127 to 115 per CC test. I think we determined that I was at 9.6/1 before. Shop put JB weld behind the pinholes.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby The Mad Cadder » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:58 am

Plenty of spring pressure at 1.8 ..
180 is too much seat pressure according to most recomendations. Did you ask the lifter manufacturer how much pressure they can handie?

I suspect the spring pressure caused the lifter and pushrod issue by collapsing the lifter allowing the pushrod to get loose..

:twocents: I set mine at 140
would take the .03 shim out.

I can't recall what your pistons cc at ??

Btw.
Did you ever check your piston to valve clearence when you degree the cam..
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby caddycarlo » Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:33 pm

I am getting a compression ratio of 10.48 on your engine using a 15 cc dome piston ..115 cc head ...9.6 cc head gasket and 507 cid
my name is Scott. The caddycarlo album has lots in it link below
http://www.cadillacpower.com/forum/gallery/album.php?album_id=102
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby The Mad Cadder » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:28 am

The domes are suppose to be 14 to 1 with 76cc heads

Those domes with the valve relief are more like 7cc..
7 cc dome with a 76cc head is 14 to 1 with 115 is 9.78

76 cc and 15 cc dome are 15.54 to 1

This is why I asked if they were checked.. My Arias domes back in the 90's were 7cc I verified this by positioning a piston 1" down the bore figuring the cc of the bore then cc'in the bore with heavy oil. The computed figure minus the varified gives you the actual

Alternatively if you know the part number or even just manufacturer you may be able to get that info from them.. I sent Venolia a email about my 520's and from their cnc program knew the exact cc of the domes
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
The Mad Cadder
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Posts: 3596
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby dave brode » Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:04 am

[quote="samIam"]

Originally the springs measured 180lb at 1.77. Now the springs measure 177lb at 1.77.


quote]


That does sound excessive, but I would want to know the open rate. Do you know the spring rate? Or, do you know the open pressure? If so, at that dimension?

Assuming even a 400 lbs/in spring, opening it up .100 would still mean 140#.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby The Mad Cadder » Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:47 am

I posted the link below to cranes recomdation on spring pressures. They are close to lunatis depends on the manufacturer. Isky says their lifters can handle 200 seat .. I think too much seat on a hyd lifter messes the valving up ..to much open is no good for anything..

http://www.cranecams.com/bulletins_listview.php?s_id=16
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
The Mad Cadder
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 3596
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:00 am

I just got off the phone with the lifter manufacturer and he says I'm too high. My calculations puts me at 437lbs at .650 lift. He says to be under 400. He's not to worried about closed pressure of 177lbs but I have too much open. I think I'm gonna get new springs since shaving .030 off the locaters and +.050 locks still have me just over 400lbs. Just gotta call the cam people again and see where they want me at also.

comp cam 26056-16 lifters right now. 177lbs at 1.77 install height.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby 8ad-f85 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:01 pm

I keep a few extra retainer/lock combos around specifically for this reason.
For example, some of the 10* ones give the spring maybe .090" extra height (thinking of sbc stuff here).
Same reason I suppose that I order more valves than 8 at a time and often a few in other lengths/brands..
They don't usually stack up the same and it can be tough to guess when you are starting without any.
I have more flexibility than most as I'm the one choosing the seat height and where the springs will end up...and of course how much of the short turn real estate I want to use up.
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Re: High Comp 120cc Build

Postby samIam » Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:03 am

Yea, I'm taking the springs down to the shop to get true number at .650.

Called lunati and they said 120-140 seat and 320-380 open. This is different info then before as I'm sure I didn't neglect this info before. Either way, things are getting fixed.
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