507 Boogieman

Everything to do with the 425, 472, and 500 inch Cadillac engines.

Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby The Mad Cadder » Tue Apr 04, 2017 5:53 am

one finger john wrote:Because of the use of larger intake valves with as-cast valve pockets it would make sense that machine work on the pistons would be required. The pockets would probably work with smaller valves and a smaller, less aggressive, cam. This is in a period of time which should be in the initial phase of mock-up instead of in the later, almost finishing-up phase of assembly.
As a matter of fact, I like the idea of using the cylinder head as a fixture to machine the pistons. The "as it is" relationship of piston to valve is easier to control and, in my opinion, a better fit. A true custom fit between valve and piston as far as clearances, with the parts that are being used.
It would have been better in the earlier stage before the crank assy and cam assy were installed with lube, but so be it. I also would of used clay to determine the true shape of the pockets (or even the clearances of piston to combustion chamber, bigger piece of clay for both intake & exhaust).
Larger valves used with as-cast pistons. Always gotta' check em. Large aggressive cam. Always gotta' em. Extra machine work to clean up (to be sure there are no bits and pieces left in the engine) but at least it is being corrected.
I think Mad Cad sometimes gets lost in his numbers and blathers on a bit, but he'll get it done and we will see how it turns out.

John



John
The pistons are designed for BOOGIEMAN heads..
With the valves I have in them.. The pistons are not some generic Cadillac forging..The reason the alignment issue happened it due to the head being decked .120

I did not change the depth of the eyebrow just corrected
it's location.The as figured valve drop was something over 1/2"
prior to my cutting the heads..even wits the cut of 1/8" I should have had plenty..it's the fact that in cutting the deck the valves
move closer to the piston but NOT at the angle they do thru the
guides that this changes the position relative to the piston
I did not realize this prior to having the heads cut ..

Cutting pistons in a assembled short block is a last resort and is a nitemare.. However you are right in that the in head cutters are good because they are precise in location for the eyebrow.. A point to add to that is that there are variances in valve locations from cylinder to cylinder let alone head to head.. The eyebrow the cutter made is clearly a tiny bit different from one cylinder bank to the other as I used the right head to cut the right bank and left on the left.. The only way to truly know you have clearence on all 16 valves is to do as I have done and check all 16..

All of this has been explained in my previous posts..
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

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Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby caddycarlo » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:23 am

Nice post John .. I agree

Was not trying to talk cams thought from your posts you wanted the other cam ...
my name is Scott. The caddycarlo album has lots in it link below
http://www.cadillacpower.com/forum/gallery/album.php?album_id=102
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Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby 8ad-f85 » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:11 am

I see variance in dowel locations from head to dead in many aftermarket castings.
Me thinks they don't always follow a call out on the print from the deck dowel to intake manifold, or maybe the various makers' process leaves room for error (poke a yoke?).

I've checked many GM castings from a few platforms and they are always +-.001 or so

Curious if the cyl to cyl differences are because of crank indexing or if it's in the head?
The Y locations and angles should be really close in most any machine, except for a failing 4th axis brake or worn trunnion bearing in the fixture... unless made on a horizontal mill and pallet changing type tombstone.

Was each piston located by depth or crank angle?
Apologies if covered already.
I suppose a partially assembled head and a straightedge will tell the tale.

I more often lately use the head casting to at least see how consistent the reliefs need to be before doing each piston individually in the mill.
Every engine with new-to-it castings should be mock assembled without rings :backinmyday:
Of course, do that long before any final cleaning.
Having to order only one piston's rings or a whole set because one accidentally gets dinged really sucks too :irked:
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Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby The Mad Cadder » Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:52 am

8ad-f85 wrote:Curious if the cyl to cyl differences are because of crank indexing or if it's in the head?


Not a big difference, can hardly see it
There is some deck to main bore and or crank index issue .
When checking deck clearance I found #1 at zero deck and #4
-.004 and out like two .002 side to side ..as I recall. ..

Also guide clearance varies and that would allow the cutter to
pull to one side or the other

8ad-f85 wrote:Was each piston located by depth or crank angle?
Apologies if covered already.
:irked:
each was done at TDC
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
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Posts: 3587
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Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby 8ad-f85 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:34 am

Cool.
Just making aware that there isn't always a True Position held from one datum.
Each face might be correct to the print, but other features might not relate quite right.
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Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby The Mad Cadder » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:33 pm

Waiting on the cam which is now going to be

304 adv.
253@.050
175@.200
.382 / .650
108 LSA +2*

Actual compression is now most likely down to 10.1...10.2 to1 at the most.. Also debating on what if anything to do with the torque converter
Its a Precision Ind. 9.5" Vigilante .. supposedly set to 3600 stall with a lockup..
I get one free adjustment if its done within the first 18 months [ I believe 18?? ]

Debating on a actual installed INCL ??

Most likely straight up would be 107 ... 106 ? 102 ?? 108 ??

any increments of 1 or 2* mean either offset keys or modifying the cam sprocket for sbc bushings
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
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Posts: 3587
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425

Postby The Mad Cadder » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:04 pm

425 is out.. It didn't come easy.. Fought me every step of the way...
despite that.. Its now on stand next to 507 and 520 :D ..

Cam shipped earlier today only 12 days after ordering it.. It should be here Friday by 8 pm..

Guess Ill just leave the converter as is.. No idea what to expect if I can ever get it to hook anyway..

What really scares the CRAP out of me is the trans adapter... I do have extra long dowels and they
are VERY tight in the trans.. however it is more so the friction between the mounting surfaces that
prevents things from moving rather than just the diameter of the bolts and such :crossfingers:
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
The Mad Cadder
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Posts: 3587
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

Baby cam

Postby The Mad Cadder » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:14 pm

Junior has arrived

Image
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
The Mad Cadder
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Posts: 3587
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby The Mad Cadder » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:21 pm

The cam was suppose to be ground +2* ..
I installed it in the 4* advanced key .
It checked 105.5* incl ..the straight up install should
put it at 106*.. (108 lsa +2*) .


Figuring maybe the timing set was made wrong I checked the
other keys but found it to be the cam grind.. chain has almost
no slack it dosent even make .25* .. interestingly the intake
lobe I checked has .383 lift and the ex has .382 ..
They also vary in degree durations but I need
to find my notes to be sure ..it was like 1/2 - 1*

It has .240 intake valve to piston clearence at 10* btdc
Ex is .175 at 10* btdc...


Image
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
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Posts: 3587
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby frankenregal84 » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:20 pm

Can you post a close up of your degreeing setup? Particularly the pointer and wheel area. I never thought to do it that way.
-Azeem K.
Ottawa, ON
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Re: Baby cam

Postby Darius » Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:08 pm

The Mad Cadder wrote:Junior has arrived

Image


"Junior" is Beautiful ... and the right color too!!

So, what is he doing at your place and why do you have my new heads??

Inquiring minds, and old envious eyes .... want your stuff!! (Okay, I'll just take pleasure in your build.)

Best to ya Brother,

d
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Re: Baby cam

Postby The Mad Cadder » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:28 am

Darius wrote:
The Mad Cadder wrote:Junior has arrived

Image


"Junior" is Beautiful ... and the right color too!!

So, what is he doing at your place and why do you have my new heads??

Inquiring minds, and old envious eyes .... want your stuff!! (Okay, I'll just take pleasure in your build.)

Best to ya Brother,

d


Maybe someday he can come to your house to play ..

Seriously my other roller showed virtually zero wear so
maybe if this grind turns out to be too small you can make
a second opinion
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
The Mad Cadder
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 3587
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby The Mad Cadder » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:38 am

frankenregal84 wrote:Can you post a close up of your degreeing setup? Particularly the pointer and wheel area. I never thought to do it that way.


I wish I could but I only took pics from the same angle (somehow)

What it is is a machining parallel with holes approx every inch. Held with a nut on both sides of it on one threaded rod clamped to the other threaded rod..

It makes a solid pointer that dosent move .. bummer is the crank
must be rotated at the rear so the wheel dosent move..

The massive bummer is prior to last week I had no idea thanks again to Cadco we now have the option of a

5 keyway timing set

with the 3 key one I have I cannot advance the cam to where I wanted it thanks to Lunati grinding it wrong

Another thing is the cam button was about .04 short of the
spec I've seen for other roller cam buttons.. You should set it up
for .006 - .010 clearance to the front cover.. I added a .06 valve shim and sanded .02 from the botton.. Iam right at .007 - .008
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
The Mad Cadder
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Posts: 3587
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

Re: Baby cam

Postby Darius » Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:16 pm

The Mad Cadder wrote:
Darius wrote:
The Mad Cadder wrote:Junior has arrived

Maybe someday he can come to your house to play ..

Seriously my other roller showed virtually zero wear so
maybe if this grind turns out to be too small you can make
a second opinion


What are the durations numbers on Junior and the overlap if you have it.

Thank,

d
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Re: 507 Boogieman

Postby The Mad Cadder » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:04 am

Junior is

304 adv.
253 @.05
.382 lobe lift
108 LSA
Overlap is 94* . I think more important is @.05 37*

From conversation with Courtney it seems that thru his testing which has so far been done with hyd flat tappet cams that have had the so called 10 to 1 pistons with 80cc or larger chambers .. which is actually 9.6 to this point even with these heads the basic Caddy rule applies .. More cam is better

Here is the part iam stuck on.. I had taken a step back and realized maybe i had went tol far with the 261@.05 cam with
only 10.5 to 1 with not only Boogieman heads but ported ones too boot. So is it really a fair comparison atleast in my mind there is a big difference between a hyd flat tappet at 260 and a hyd roller with the same..for conversation sake here is some interesting data

Running a 260* @.05 hyd flat tappet they run out of cam @5500
and make 750 ft lbs / 700 hp.. he has some 4.625 and 4 750 stroke cranks on order and will do the high compression big cam test when they arrive ..

I would say you can expect some really huge numbers :D
With astronomically big torque numbers
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
The Mad Cadder
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 3587
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

Trash screen

Postby The Mad Cadder » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:23 am

Trash screen installed

Image

Image


Image
The past

71 Fleetwood , 73 SDV , 77 Eldo , 81 Cdv 472 236 @.050
71 Skylark 504 232 @.05 - 512 250 @.050
80 Cdv 507 238 @.05 solid , 68 Coupe 500 224 @.05
69 Camaro 514 ,6-71 288 @ .05 - 524 14.0 274 @.05 soild roller
330 cfm iron heads best 1/4 mile 9.65 136.96 mph 1.31 60'

"The Mad Banana" tow Caddy and
Someday .. One insane 27 T

The Cadil-maniac
The Mad Cadder
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 3587
Images: 144
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:54 am
Location: Detoilet Mi

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