Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Everything to do with the 425, 472, and 500 inch Cadillac engines.

Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Rasmus68DeVille » Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:01 pm

Just read this on Wikipedia's site:

The new-generation engine that debuted with the 1968 models at a displacement of 472 cu in (7.7 L) was designed for an ultimate capacity potential of 600 cu in (9.8 L). Displacement was increased to 500 cu in (8.2 L) for the 1970 model Eldorado, then adopted across all models for 1975. Performance waned after peaking at 420 hp (313 kW) and over 550 foot-pounds force (750 N·m) of torque in the first year and further declined in 1971 and later years due to reductions in compression ratios necessitated by the advent of low-octane unleaded fuel and increasingly stringent emission requirements.


It's from this page.

The author of this section of the article writes that the 472/500 casting of Cadillac's engines were designed for an ultimate capacity potential of 600 cu in. If this is true, and I,m not writing that it is, Cadillac may have intended to increase the stoke every year or two just so show up Lincoln. But then the whole Fuel with no Lead , oil embargo, EPA thing, put an end to the plan.

Any truth to any of this?

Could a crank with a stoke that long even fit in the block?
Last edited by Rasmus68DeVille on Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby MOCRUZN » Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:05 pm

4.5 bore x 4.5 stroke =  572 ci,  so, probably not in the V8 configuration.

However,  in V10 or V12 with the same B/S as the V8, gives 625 ci and 750 ci .  Even in 425 dimensions a V12 would yield 637 ci
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 ci

Postby Bruce Roe » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:17 pm

Maybe a bigger bore was planned.  The small block 403 has a bigger bore than the 500.  Bruce Roe CLC # 14630
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 ci

Postby dave brode » Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:20 pm

Bruce Roe wrote:Maybe a bigger bore was planned.  The small block 403 has a bigger bore than the 500.  Bruce Roe CLC # 14630


403 is siamesed. Maybe that's what they had planned? With a 5" C/L, it could probably have been big.

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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby mario » Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:25 pm

hey guys:
don't forget, there is a V 12 cylinder in the museum. i think it was in doc fromade's book. i don't know if there was a displacement listed but i do remember that is was explained as the engine that was designed to fill the LONG hood of the 1970 + eldos until the CAFE standards changed in 1970.
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby smalltruckbigcid » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:26 pm

I played with this idea several years ago. Theoreticaly speaking you could bore and sleeve the whole block to a 4.650 bore. That gives you about a .115 thick cylinder wall, yeah you'd have to hard block this. Now depending on who you ask you can swing a 4.5 inch stroke easily in the block as it stands. If you use a chevy rod. That gives you about 611 cubic inches. This would be a race only kind of app because the cooling in the block will be very little.
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Paris » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:37 pm

mario wrote:hey guys:
don't forget, there is a V 12 cylinder in the museum. i think it was in doc fromade's book. i don't know if there was a displacement listed but i do remember that is was explained as the engine that was designed to fill the LONG hood of the 1970 + eldos until the CAFE standards changed in 1970.
ciao,
mario


According to that "Big Inch Cadillac" book, it was a SOHC V-12 able to produce over 400hp on pump gas. Was called the V-Future and was supposed to be their base engine for 12-15 years.

Wonder if thats one of the pieces that GM sold off? Wouldn't think it'd be worth much to most.
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Cadiac » Thu Sep 24, 2009 11:57 pm

At one time I had a link to where the story and pic of that engine/V12 late 60's I think prototype was but I can't find it for now. while looking I found this, it's interesting. Famous people who had/with there Cadillacs.       http://www.car-nection.com/cadillacdata ... arcar2.htm
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Cadillac Kid 1 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:43 am

Gentlemen,
The person who was present during the development of the (thre versions ther-of) Cadillac V-12 just passed away a couple of weeks ago, and would be turning over laughing in his grave at some of the urban Myths expressed above.

The Cadillac V-12 was an experiment requested specifically in the mid '60s by the then CEO of Cadillac. It WAS to "out-do" Lincoln and their "rumored" rebirth of the V-12.  What was developed (in any of the three versions of firing order, cam timing, etc.) was never as smooth as Cadillac standards.
The 472 family was still under development, but what Cadillac Engineering did was to take the V-12, and enlarge a 429 to 500 inches.  They (I don't remember which Bob said was the case) then either installed the engines in identical cars or used the same car and took turns with the engines.  The had the CEO drive them and road test them for a while to evaluate his request for a V-12.  His impression coupled with the "bean counters" estimate of the high cost of producing the V-12's dictated that Cadillac stay with a V-8.

In regards to the 600 cubic inch figure there was at the time no intent of making a car heavier than the current  (late 60's) vehicle line.  Cadillac Engineering, anticipatdthe change to unleaded gasoline, catylitic converters and all the future polution restrictions that did come into effect.  They were confident that the 472/502 inch engine then under development would carry them well into the future.
Regarding the long Eldorado hood and the V-12.  The long hood was in direct competition with the Lincoln and was strictly a fuction of Cadillac Styling.  Designers worked strictly in secret and they then told the Engineers what the had to work with.  It was NEVER the other way around.  I don't remember the exact dates that Bob Templin (Retired as Chief Engineer Cadillac Motor Division) the afore mentioned recently deseased gentleman told me, but there was a time conflict with the V-12 and the Eldo's Front wheel drive and long hood that shows there was no connection between them.
I was introduced to Bob Templin a few years ago and I was fortunate to have spent some time talking about the development of the 60's and 70's cars and their features.  He dispelled several of the Urban Myths to my satisfaction.
A long winded dissertation on why I do believe there was never any intent on going to 600 cubic inches with the 472/500 family of engines.
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Ted in Olympia » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:50 am

I think the long hood was only because of the FWD set up and the desire to have a perfectly flat floor in the cab.  This made it necessary to put all the engine and trans up front and created a long hood.
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby mario » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:31 pm

"The 472 family was still under development, but what Cadillac Engineering did was to take the V-12, and enlarge a 429 to 500 inches"

hey greg:
if i understand your statement, then the V 12 was 500 c.i. ?
thanks.
ciao,
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Cadillac Kid 1 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:09 pm

Mario,
Let me go back and look at the notes I made while talking to Robert Templin.  I did an "interview" article with him that was in the Self Starter a while back.  We also discussed the V-12 in detail, but I'll have to check on the specs.

Ted,
From what Bob told me the long hood was strictly a product of the styling department.  The Front wheel drive Eldo was partially a test bed for the future.  They (the accountants) had figured there would be substantial savings in going to a unitized power "module" .  As we now know, this was the direction Cadillac went with almost their entire line.
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby mario » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:22 pm

hey greg:
thanks a lot. that sure is nice of you.
ciao,
mario
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Vern » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:12 am

I thought JW or someone had determined that at least theoretically we could do a 4.6" stroke along with the 4.5" bore to make a 585ci.  I would think that would need some hardblock help as the block would be getting kind of flimsy with that much swing and all the material taken out from the bore & clearencing. As well as the crank itself being flimsyier.  Can't remember if they said anything about raising the cam when that was talked about. That and you would need Ported aluminum heads to allow that monster to breath.  I think it was back on cowboy7 days when that was discussed at length.

Today I think if someone is thinking about blowing some extra dough on stroking a Cadillac it should be for the primary purpose of reducing the journal size rather than increasing the cubes.  Aftermarket aluminum heads, intake, and probably even roller cam should be in line before a stroke as well as rods & pistons etc.  At least for some type of performance engine then again I guess someone could be thinking of for towing but again diesels already have that better covered and are plentiful. Potter did if memory serves me a 4.44 bore 4.42 stroke 542ci that seemed to make some sense a few years ago.  Still useing the smaller Chrysler journal without going to crank weakening BBC journal or too much stroke that it becomes harder to get the power band up with our small cam size.  A bore big enough to help big valves breath without makeing at least the right block too weak.  For any noobs please don't take this for much more than light hearted discussion. I am not an engine builder just an enthusiast who amused himself with stroker Cad possibilities.  :)
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby dave brode » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:26 am

Well said, Vern.

I know that there are guys here with up to a 4.6" crankshaft, but for big power, the reduced overlap is an issue, so experts say.

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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Cadillac Kid 1 » Sat Sep 26, 2009 11:58 am

Mario,
My notes say that they enlarged the V-8 to the V-12's displacement.  I do not believe we ever discussed the actual displacement of the V-12.  I am learning lately to get all the information I can from those that were there, we often don't get another chance. 

Regarding the initial question, going back over my notes (I made during conversations with Bob Templin) Cadillac Engineering "knew" this was the "swan song" of power plants working with the state of the art electronics (mid 60's),  and fully understanding the future polution controls that would be necessary.
For the Engineers, the need to go past 500 inches was not necessary.
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby JW » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:37 pm

  As best as i have mocked up a 4.7 stroke with a 2.1 rod journal will clear the stock cam journal.....this all depends on where the bolts are placed in the rod and other factors.

  If someone wanted to build a big engine with no worries about money with a factory crank and all the bells and whistles you could build a 560-565  inch streetable engine another ten cubes or so could be had using a billet crank and smaller rod journals.


  I would prefer to build the biggest engine i can afford as long as you have the heads to feed the beast...and we do and there is no reliability compromise.

  Having said that to answer the original question no you cant built the engine that large and you would not want to try.

    Maybe someday we will get a block and some forged cranks.....then the games can begin  :metal:
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby STDog » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:05 am

GM/Cadillac would have cast a crank with the stroke they wanted, not grind on existing cranks.
Probably would have changed the block as well. For sure the heads would have been tweaked.
And it would have probably been designed for the same RPM range as the 472, maybe a bit slower.

Not saying it's possible, just that some above are looking at the wrong things to discount it.


Greg, I'd love to have met Bob.

Can you post your article? Or does the CLC have the rights to it?
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Re: Was Cadillac's 472/500 block designed for a potential displacement of 600 cid?

Postby Cadillac Kid 1 » Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:26 am

Thomas,
I will check with the Self Starter regarding their "rights" and get back on that.  I was indeed fortunate to have met and been able to talk to Mr. Templin.  He was a true down to earth engineer and found the politics of the corporae world quite distastefull.
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