Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials

General topics not pertaining to one particular type of engine, or topics regarding non-Cadillac engines.

Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials

Postby 76FleetBrougham » Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:01 am

Hey everyone,

I'm in the middle of cutting the stock mounts off my diff (lower control arm tabs, shock tabs, spring tabs) to weld new ones on, and i've been thinking about opening it up to check everything out/ replace bearings, etc.

However, looking online, it seems only the bearings are available- not shims, crush sleeve for the pinion, etc.

Has anyone actually "refreshed" thei rear end? One of the things i really want to do is swap out the pinion flange for a normal pinion yoke so i can order my driveshaft, and the lack of seeing the crush sleeve makes me worry about taking it apart.

Perhaps i'm just looking in the wrong place? Last thing i want to do is take it apart and realize i can't even get parts to put it back together to stock config.

Thanks,
Blake


EDIT:

Timken Catalog:
http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/Do ... _older.pdf

Rear axle outer bearings: Timken SET10- OD: 2.875" / ID: 1.562"
http://www.moserengineering.com/other-p ... ing-1.html

Differential Bearings 1970-1976: Timken SET38 (individual-need 2)

Pinion:
Cone/Cup (inner): HM89449-HM89410
Seal (outer): 2043
Cone/Cup (outer): M88048-M88010
Cyl. Bearing (pilot): R1581TV
Last edited by 76FleetBrougham on Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:21 am, edited 7 times in total.
Blake
1976 Fleetwood Brougham
BUILD PICTURES: http://stoddard.smugmug.com/BuildingTheBeast
User avatar
76FleetBrougham
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 1183
Images: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:20 pm
Location: VA / DC

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials - parts available?

Postby USSCADY » Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:46 am

Blake,

I hope I'm wrong, but I don't know of a source for the crush sleeves. I went through my '71 2.94 posi. Replaced axle bearings and seals, pinion seal, cover gasket. Did the pinion seal by marking everything possible (Nut, yoke, pinion shaft) and torqued back to the same place. Checked the gears after, still meshed perfect. Have a few hundred miles on it now, very quiet, posi works perfect. :cloud9: Plan to flush the axle this year just to make sure I get any debris out that may have loosened up, axle sat for a while.

I have a 3.15 '76 limo axle, but it doesn't have posi. Considered trying to switch the posi over, but there aren't any publicly available books for the old Caddy axles. Have a connection that may be able to find the factory papers on the axles, but we decided not to go down a path that may leave us with two unusable axles..

Dave
User avatar
USSCADY
Gearhead
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am
Location: West Bloomfield, Michigan

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials - parts available?

Postby 76FleetBrougham » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:28 am

Thanks for the reply Dave. I found a section in the factory manual last night about using the old crush sleeve, so I'm not to worried about that now. I at least know (and from you) that it can be done without any problems.

I actually found an old thread on here from years ago that didn't pop up before viewtopic.php?p=46223

So it seems we're good on bearings/seals....It's just figuring out exactly what ones you need.

Just for anyone else reading this, i did a little searching around the internet, and I think I might have pieced together a few sources for the other parts (crush sleeve, shims, etc). But i need to take dimensions first. Hopefully this weekend I can pull the axles so I can finish welding on my control arm tabs. While It's apart I'll start measuring all the bits and pieces.


Also, does anyone have a "junk" carrier from one of these diffs they'd be willing to part with? Don't need/want an LSD, as I'm going to send the unit to someone to see about having a spool made/or ideally have a 12bolt one modified to work.

When i get better information on the parts (numbers, etc.) I'll update this thread in case others in the future need some help.

Thanks,
Blake
Blake
1976 Fleetwood Brougham
BUILD PICTURES: http://stoddard.smugmug.com/BuildingTheBeast
User avatar
76FleetBrougham
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 1183
Images: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:20 pm
Location: VA / DC

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials - parts available?

Postby DevilDeVille » Tue Feb 21, 2012 8:13 pm

You can throw a Powertrax unit inside the existing open carrier so there would be no need to send it somewhere.

Best of luck,
Martin
´73 Eldo Convertible RatRod, ´74 Eldo Convertible, ´78 Sedan DeVille with 500, ´78 Fleetwood Formal Limo, ´86 Cimarron 2.0 litre :D, '97 Deville D'Elegance
User avatar
DevilDeVille
Gearhead
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:57 am
Location: Estonia (next to Russia)

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials - parts available?

Postby USSCADY » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:54 am

I still have the original 2.73 axle assembly in Lansing, MI that came out of the '75 Coupe. It's got 130K on it, but was still good, just leaking some at one wheel. Was considering scrapping it for the iron. Dave
User avatar
USSCADY
Gearhead
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am
Location: West Bloomfield, Michigan

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials - parts available?

Postby 76FleetBrougham » Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:42 pm

DevilDeVille wrote:You can throw a Powertrax unit inside the existing open carrier so there would be no need to send it somewhere.


Honestly, what I'm looking for is a straight spool. IIRC though someone said a lockright 1910 (or something like that) would fit our stock 30 splines. I'll probably go with that for now depending on what i see when it comes apart.

I found a place that will do one-off custom spools, but I'd rather see if there's a possibility of machining one down from anything else, to save a lot on the cost. The thought of having a spare carrier is that i could ship it off to someone to have the spool made without having to take my car out of commission.

Looking around this morning, I'm pretty sure a crush sleeve eliminator kit from a 12 bolt would work fine for the cad rear end. Seems it’s simply a matter of measuring the crush sleeve "crushed length" and using a solid piece of similar length. Worst case- machine one out of some DOM or chromoly. That would take care of the crush sleeve/bearing preload issue. You could also easily switch from the housing shim style (unavailable) to the normal 12bolt style (shim on pinion) to take care of the pinion depth.
Last edited by 76FleetBrougham on Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blake
1976 Fleetwood Brougham
BUILD PICTURES: http://stoddard.smugmug.com/BuildingTheBeast
User avatar
76FleetBrougham
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 1183
Images: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:20 pm
Location: VA / DC

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials - parts available?

Postby 76FleetBrougham » Wed Feb 22, 2012 5:34 pm

Nice weather, so i started tearing the rear apart today. Sledge hammer and a few taps got the axles out real easy. I'll edit the first post of this thread with the general dimensions/ pertinent information as i get it.

Cover definitely looks like some sort of a modified 12bolt truck....
Image
However, the carrier definitely doesnt (random 12bolt truck pic from the web)
Image

Image

How the pinion depth is shimmed.
Image

Housing end - top is 3-3/4" spread, bottom is 3" spread, top to bottom is 2.5", diagnal looks about 4-3/16"
Image

Quick eyeball of axles says longer side is 33-3/8", shorter is 27-7/8"
Image

axles. three steps - 1.360" by the splines, next step is 1.435", last step by bearing is 1.525". haven't measured bearing surface yet.
Image

Housing - 2.875" opening, .975" deep
Image

view inside
Image


And you know what the real kicker is? Only 26 splines. wow....
Image

On the upside, the insides of this definitely look beefy....
Blake
1976 Fleetwood Brougham
BUILD PICTURES: http://stoddard.smugmug.com/BuildingTheBeast
User avatar
76FleetBrougham
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 1183
Images: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:20 pm
Location: VA / DC

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials

Postby dave brode » Wed Feb 22, 2012 9:17 pm

Blake,

You are a make it happen guy for sure, and I mean it in a good way. However, I must ask: Are you set on the Caddy rear? How tall a cog do you need?

Dave
User avatar
dave brode
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 13418
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:02 pm
Location: Frostburg, Maryland

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials

Postby USSCADY » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:06 am

Blake,

I'll give you my 2.73 axle, just need to figure out shipping. I took my '69 ambulance 3.21 posi apart, and the CC (Commercial Chassis) use bigger axles and wheel bearings yet. They switched from pig-style axle to the style you have in '70 I believe. Think theses older Caddy axles were all made at the Clark street plant in Detroit. That area turned into the Cadillac museum in the early 90s.

Dave
User avatar
USSCADY
Gearhead
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am
Location: West Bloomfield, Michigan

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials

Postby 76FleetBrougham » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:21 am

dave brode wrote:Blake,
You are a make it happen guy for sure, and I mean it in a good way. However, I must ask: Are you set on the Caddy rear? How tall a cog do you need?
Dave


I definitely will be upgrading to something else when the time comes, but for now I'm just looking to see if i can make this live "good enough" on the cheap. New bearings/axles/some type of spool is all I'm really looking for now. Sans the control arms that were cheaper than the replacement bushings. Eventually I will need something that I can actually get different gears for. I haven't looked much into it, but the winters quickchange bonneville (10.5" iirc) version sounded nice. In the end though, I might end up with a 9" and a gear vendors.

drdave wrote:Blake,
I'll give you my 2.73 axle, just need to figure out shipping. I took my '69 ambulance 3.21 posi apart, and the CC (Commercial Chassis) use bigger axles and wheel bearings yet. They switched from pig-style axle to the style you have in '70 I believe. Think theses older Caddy axles were all made at the Clark street plant in Detroit. That area turned into the Cadillac museum in the early 90s.
Dave


Thanks for the offer Dave. Let's hold off until I can call around next week and get a general idea of how much it might be to get this spool made. If it's going to cost as much as a used built-up differential, I'll probably give up on this and just find a mini-spool to slap in for the time being. I completely missed that you were from Michigan. I don't remember exactly where, but both sides of my parents family used to work in the factories around hamtramck back in the 50's-80's. I remember going to some open-house day and actually seeing the cadillac museum too (mid 90's maybe).
Blake
1976 Fleetwood Brougham
BUILD PICTURES: http://stoddard.smugmug.com/BuildingTheBeast
User avatar
76FleetBrougham
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 1183
Images: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:20 pm
Location: VA / DC

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials

Postby 76FleetBrougham » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:31 am

Edited first post with this:


Pulled this straight out of Timken Catalog:
http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/Do ... _older.pdf
more catalogs
http://www.timken.com/en-us/products/pa ... alogs.aspx


Rear axle outside bearings: Timken SET10- OD: 2.875" / ID: 1.562" (Dimensions fit what I took. looks like a winner)
http://www.moserengineering.com/other-p ... ing-1.html

Differential Carrier Bearings 1970-1976: Timken SET38 (comes individually)

Pinion:
Cone/Cup (inner): HM89449-HM89410
Seal (outer): 2043
Cone/Cup (outer): M88048-M88010
Cyl. Bearing (pilot): R1581TV[/size]


You know, the more I look at it, and see what uses what(some of the bearings cross over), this rear end looks more like a mini-14 bolt than a 12bolt


A friend sent me a picture of his 14 bolt. Carrier looks oddly similar.....
Image

Look here about 3/4 down. 14 bolt pinion shims (in the picture that shows the install kit layed out - shims on right). I'm going to just find a part number and order 1 to see if its the same size as this.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... ar_Review/
Picture:
http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... G_3159.jpg

http://completeoffroad.com/i-2761816-gm ... gm14t.html
Blake
1976 Fleetwood Brougham
BUILD PICTURES: http://stoddard.smugmug.com/BuildingTheBeast
User avatar
76FleetBrougham
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 1183
Images: 17
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:20 pm
Location: VA / DC

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials

Postby dave brode » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:56 am

Blake,

Fwiw, I mean no offense to Caddy chassis guys, but I see no good reason to put money into a caddy rear, esp if you will buy axles eventually, and have to have a spool custom made.

If the weight doesn't bother you, the truck axles look pretty good to me. I like the 14 bolts. As you may have gathered, I was hinting of the "logistics" [grr, did I use that new buzz word?] of using one of those or even a Dana 60/61. Some later trucks may also use 70s with taller gears, but I'm not well read there. If buying axles, it is a simple matter of choosing which brake ends you like, and ordering axles to suit. MW stuff is super nice, but I like Strange for bang per buck.

35 spline option with "posi" in the 60/61, the power lock units are tough, maybe no need for spool [no fun on street, believe me]. A buddy of mine went 9.40s at 3040 lb on a brake with a powerlock. Detroit lockers, Torsen, and spools of course [up to 40 spline for spools in the Danas, iirc] 3.07-1 and 3.3x-1 options with 61 housing [threads here], 3.54-1 with 60 housing. Not sure what axle spline options available for the 9.5 and 10.5" 14 bolts, but the carrier options are probably as wide. Not sure how tough the 9.5 is, compared to 10.5 though.

Then there is the oh so wonderfull 9" option that you mentioned.

here's a thread on truck rears: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13821&p=148167&hilit=60+14+bolt#p148167
Dave
User avatar
dave brode
One Sick Caddy Freak
 
Posts: 13418
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 2:02 pm
Location: Frostburg, Maryland

Re: Cadillac 10/12 bolt differentials

Postby cadracer » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:44 am

As i was reading i was wondering with all the options your looking at what about just slipping in a ford nine inch set up for the caddy. Can get the carrier with spools of many axle spline configurations. Due to the availability of no one local i feel comfortable in narrowing my 9 in for my c-10 i have purchased the jig to narrow them myself. It also comes with the ability to do other rear diffs. I will get some pictures of my nine inch pinion yoke. Took the yoke to a metal works place and they cut down the 9in u joint flange so the caddy flange could be pressed in. They then drill it and installed 4 set screws. Then welded over top of them so the wouldn't back out. Then he did a really nice weld around it to join the 2 together with nickle which is if i remember correctly is 120 ppsi rather than the 70 or 80 ppsi other rod is. That way i just use the caddy drive shaft in my ford truck. I love the dual CV joints no vibrations and i have had it way beyond the speed limit. A brick is not suppose to float :D . I know it holds because i have run it for like 20 years and the u joints broke off the ear and also i have twisted up a drive shaft. The home made mini spool worked wonders and just last year i broke all the teeth off the spiders on a hard launch due top traction issues on one tire. Damn street sweep must have been on vacation. All this was done on 28 spline axles. Back on topic sorry for the ramble. I can do up a nine inch housing any length. Even the gm 12 and 14 bolts along with the chryslers. Just food for thought everyone.
cadracer
Backyard Mechanic
 
Posts: 15
Images: 7
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:28 pm


Return to General Tech

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests